Interview: Chaii Lab

So far we have been enjoying interviewing different womxn podcasters. I decided to keep up the trend and for this month's spotlight featuring Chaii Lab!!

Chaii Lab is a podcast run by a group of four friends Naman, Muna, Laabiah, and Fatima. These four ladies cover a variety of topics from suffering from imposter syndrome to giving everyday advice like how to tell your immigrant parents you are moving out (yes, it’s really a big deal). We hope this interview with the four founders gives you more insight into who they are as people and if you do not already the chance to start listening to them!

Tell me a bit about yourself.

Naman: I am the 'Wisconsinite' of the group. I mention my home state way too often. There is nothing even there for me to be representing. My parents are both Somalian, but I was born and raised in Madison, Wisconsin. I am currently living in London, finishing up my Masters in Human Rights in Conflict and Justice. Before I moved here, I finished Law School, where I focused on immigration. I have always been passionate about human rights. I went to the same University as my parents did, which is the University of Wisconsin.

I love music. I am a huge music fan. I am the person who loves sharing music playlists that no one listens to on social media. I use music to connect with different languages and cultures to overcompensate for growing up in a really non-diverse state. I thought, okay, I will become a child of the world by listening to music and reading books.

Muna: Well, my name is Muna. I am half Somali and half Yemeni. I have lived in the U.K. for over 20 years now. I’ve graduated in Architecture Technologist. I originally wanted to become an Architect, then half-way through my course, I realised that I preferred to be in the workforce then study for seven years. So when I finished my three years study I went into the workforce. I gained experiences in different fields, in construction and engineering. I then decided to settle down with surveying, which I am currently doing. Plus I am a 1/4 host of a podcast, which you know, Chaii lab.

Laabiah: I was born in Islamabad, Pakistan. When I was six years old, my family moved to Toronto. I went to the University of Toronto for my undergrad and my Master's. I studied cell biology and got my Masters in immunology. In the last year of my Masters, I debated what I should do next, like if I should look for a job, and was stressed out about it even though I did not need to be. I knew about the lab my, now, current supervisor worked at and I thought it looked like it was a place that did cool stuff. So, I looked it up and saw that the institute (lab) was hiring Ph.D. students. I did not know much about the institute overall but thought, okay, I will apply here just for fun. I did not even know it was in London! I got an interview which I flew to London to do. I was offered the position, which also meant I was doing my Ph.D. I gave it some time to think about it but before I knew it, it was September, and I was on a flight to London. The program is four-years, and I have two more years to go.

Fatima: I am a third culture kid with a pan-continental upbringing. I was born in Africa but raised in Europe and Asia. After Uni, I decided to move to London to work as a hospital pharmacist and so I could make a stable home for myself. My friends live all over the world, so I really wanted my home to be a hub where people could visit and I could also meet people from all over. I think London is uniquely situated for this and it hasn’t disappointed. Then the pandemic hit so I thought hey why not create a virtual hub? That hub is Chaii Lab! So I guess now I am a podcaster too!

How did you all meet each other?

Muna: Funny thing is we all met each other at a running club, and funny enough, none of us likes to run. All of us hated running, but we all joined it because it is one of those activities on Wednesday after-work that you go to-to meet other people. London is a very busy city, so it is important to go to these things to meet people or interact with people, especially if you are working or Uni. If you are doing either of those, you are always constantly doing something, you don't have time for yourself, and when you do, you realize, oh, I don't have any friends or social life, I need to make friends!

So we all had this idea to go to this running club and socialize; however, it ended up being more active... At the same time, though, it was reasonably social. The four of us connected there and also with others in the group. We all bonded so quickly, which honestly was a blessing because each of us really needed friendship, and we found each other!

Where does the name for the podcast come from?

Naman: This is like asking your parents how did they meet? They both give you different versions.

Yasmine: You're actually the only one I have asked this question to.

Naman: Oh, no! If I don't get this right, they are going to kill me. Okay, from my understanding, I was not personally there; the other three were all making Chaii at Laabiah's apartment. Laabiah is a scientist, so she had all these ingredients for making chaii, and then the word 'lab' is in her name. So, they go, "oh, hahaha, chaii lab." So they just stuck with that. I hope I got that right.

What has been your favorite episode to create this far?

Laabiah: I like how we do random stuff. You might assume that we do a rounded theme, but it is a bit of everything. In one of our latest episodes, we talked about A.I., Algorithms, and Alternate Realities. That was a really fun one to make because I made the girls listen to this podcast about how the internet affects us, like how Instagram or Youtube creates targeted ads for you. All these platforms gather your data and use it to make ads or the darker side of how people go down these rabbit holes because they do not realize how algorithms are constructing reality. None of us has a background in this stuff, but we can still have a conversation about it.

Who is your dream guest?

Naman: I would say A.O.C. Her politics and ideas about community and social rights align a lot with mine. She would also be a really empowering woman to have on the podcast.

I am not sure if Fatima brought it up in one episode, but we were discussing decolonizing identity. We were talking specifically about Orientalism; the guest we had brought up Edward Said. Fatima goes, " oh, he sounds cool! maybe we can have him on the podcast." We go, "No. Girl, he's dead. " I could barely continue the conversation after that. I was laughing so hard. Now it is a running joke.

Muna: Dead or Alive?

Yasmine: Both!

Muna: Mmmmmm. I would probably say Zaha Hadid. She is literally my IDOL. I love her so much. I love her work. I just love that she is a woman who reached such high places in an industry where it is male-dominated, especially during her time. She is my dead dream guest.

Now alive, it would be Yassmin-Abdel-Magied. I had the privilege of being on a zoom chat, where she spoke about what she went through while working in the oil industry. She talks about how hard she struggled to become an engineer and be recognized as a black Muslim woman in the field. She touched on how going through those hardships have made her an even stronger woman. I was mesmerized by the fact that she wrote a book too! It hit a nerve being a third-culture kid myself, and listening to her talk about the hardships of being an immigrant and still accomplishing what she did, I felt proud. I would love one day to sit down and have an intellectual conversation with her.

Laabiah: Dead or alive?

Yasmine: (Chuckling) That is the first thing Muna asked me too! As I told her, both, you can say both.

Laabiah: I go through periods when I am super obsessed with a person. I remember a couple of years ago and even now a little bit I was interested in, and I know he is a douchebag, BUT Elon Musk, mostly because he is crazy! I think it would be fun for Elon and I to talk crazy together for a little bit.

Touching on the topic of A.I. again, there is a company right next to the institute I work at. I think Google owns it now. It’s called DeepMind and they research A.I. like they taught a computer how to play chess and beat the world champion. Their C.E.O. is Denis Hassabis. He has an exciting outlook on life, the future, and the potential of A.I.

Fatima: I honestly don't have a burning desire to have anyone in particular on the podcast! Actually, one of the things I love about Chaii Lab is being able to bring random people from all over the world to share their own quiet and meaningful thoughts, which is why we made Chit Chat Over Chaii on Instagram. If I were really pushed, then I would say it would be unreal to have someone like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez joining thoughts. She's such a refreshing, powerful, and reasonable voice that's really shaking up how lots of people see contentious issues around the world.

What is your favorite part of the podcast?

Muna: My favorite part is when we sit down with people and talk about whatever comes naturally. We noticed that when we have a group of people together, especially our group of friends, conversation flows so easily. You start to notice that people need to converse on certain topics, and only in that space or environment that we provide for them that those conversations come to life. That precisely is my favorite part of having those types of conversations, even with people you don't know.

Do you all have a favorite spot to record or get inspiration together?

Naman: I do not know if they explained our recording style, but we record on Zoom remotely. When we started the podcast, Labbiah was in Canada because it was in lockdown, and then we too were in lockdown. I usually record on my desk.

For inspiration, we come up with a topic a week before on Sundays, usually. Then throughout the week, we send each other things to help curate the conversation, like articles or interviews. The conversation, though, is just that a conversation between friends, so we do not try to format it too much. We want that natural element like what you would have talking to a friend, drinking chaii, and chilling in someone's living room.

What is a topic you hope to discuss on the podcast?

Laabiah: One of the things I find interesting in general about our podcast is how different we are because we are all Muslim women, but we all come from different backgrounds and what we do now professionally. A topic we are interested in is talking about immigrant parents in a way that is not this is why I have these issues or challenges (etc.) but to come at it from a place of understanding. To think more in-depth about it like what was it like for them to move here as young people like we are now? We noticed that we are at a point in our lives where we can relate to them more. For example, I am 25, and my parents were in their late 20's when they were thinking about moving across the world. It is easy to think of your parents as these unrelatable older figures, but you take a moment to step back and think that I am the same age as they were when they made this decision.

What do you hope to achieve with the podcast?

Fatima: There has been a time in each of our lives that we have been lonely. When the four of us found each other, we realized we were finally having the types of conversations we'd been craving so much, four people with different perspectives trying to make sense of the world. We want to make a space for people to enjoy a conversation they might not have in their day-to-day life by tuning into the podcast and even a chance to join in with our Chats Over Chaii Zoom calls, so no one has to be lonely.

What episode have you found to be the hardest to make or did not enjoy making?

Naman: No, I can't think of one. I really enjoy chatting. You can bring up any topic, and I will be excited to talk about it. There were some, however, that I was more passionate about talking on. The episode where Muna and I talk about black identity wasn't difficult but was an episode that took a lot more work to formulate it that way we wanted.

I think it can be hard to find a balance between sharing, so people feel like they know you and not oversharing on an episode. However, you want to share these personal anecdotes, so you don't sound like a robot talking on a subject.

What’s been your favorite episode to make?

Fatima: Decolonising Disney is definitely my favorite. We laughed so much, making that episode, but hearing it back; we actually talk about something important. That's what I enjoy about the podcast in general, though. We can laugh but can also have a serious conversation. 'Slim, Trim and Educated" was also a fun one! Our most popular have been ``Are You Even Black" and "Decolonize Your Mind," and we love that people enjoy exploring the more serious topics as much as we do.

How do you feel this podcast stands out?

Muna: To be honest, from my perspective (might be a bit biased), what we bring to the table is authenticity and a very raw and honest conversation. We are very raw because each one of us says precisely how we feel. The reason that I say that is that a good friend of ours told us once, "every time that I listen to you ladies, I just think how raw your conversations are. It is as if you are doing this for your ten-year-old self, and that in itself makes me want to come back over and over again and listen to you all." For me, this hit a chord.

These conversations are between friends, and we share them with others because we never had these conversations before. We make them accessible to people to listen in who can't be there with us because they are miles away, so they can be a part of what we are saying through this.

Laabiah: It stands out in the sense that even though we are four Muslim women, we are different because we grew up in different places, had different experiences growing up, our cultural backgrounds vary, and our careers!

We all are so different but met in this one city. I mean that it is a product of the world we live in where you can meet all these people and share different ideas and create new ones or world views.

When we have our conversations for the podcast, we all leave it learning something new because we heard everyone's viewpoints. I would say that it is unique.

Who do you feel the targeted audience for the podcast is?

Fatima: Everyone and anyone is welcome! We hope to attract an audience of people interested in third culture kids' lives and perspectives and the meeting point between worlds. Naturally, we have a significant Muslim audience, but we love the diverse community we're building. Our listeners are from literally all over the world, like Korea, Senegal, Peru, Palestine, to name just a few. I'd hope that anyone and everyone can feel like they can listen to us, either to relate or to learn something new. I learn so much from the other girls when we chat. We have completely different perspectives on almost everything, so I always come out with something, and hopefully, the listeners do too!

What are some books you would recommend? What are you reading now?

Naman: I enjoy anything by Bell Hooks. All About Love and then the book The Will to Change. I like her writing style because it mixes personal anecdotes and information.

I enjoyed the book Between the World and Me. There is a book called Barracoon by Zora Neale Hurston. It is about the last living survivor of the middle passage. The manuscript for it was recently found.

But recently, I have been reading a lot for my dissertation, which has taken the fun out of it.

Muna: I used to be very big on reading books. During 6 Form and Uni, I used to read so many books! Now, I do not have the time for it.

I'll show you what I am reading now. (Shows Yasmine the cover). It is the Secret of Divine Love by A.Helwa. The author came onto my radar during Ramadan because of this community group called Ramadan Movement Community. They used to do this book club every Sunday, which I have not been too but they did tell me about this book. After reading the first chapter, I thought, where has this book been my whole life? It is one of those books where you have to set it down to think about it and let it resonate with you after reading a chapter. I like to highlight certain sections, and when I re-read it, I see if my point of view has changed.

A book that I love so much is All About Love by Bell Hooks, and we even did an episode on that book. It talks about the different types of love for yourself and how you show it to others. I think it was Naman who got me hooked on Bell Hooks (haha). I ordered two other books by her and am still waiting to receive them.

Laabiah: In high school, I was that person during French class who was reading a book during the desk or in the hallways I would be reading a book. Then somehow, Uni killed my love for reading books. I stopped reading altogether.

Over the past six years, I probably read 3 or 5 books? I know it is horrible, but it is true. Even in Quarantine, I did not pick up a book! My youngest sister read 20 books in three months. After seeing that, I decided I needed to fix myself, so I decided to fit reading in more recently. So while eating breakfast or on my seven-minute commute, I read instead of being on my phone.

I don't have favorite books anymore because I haven't read in such a long time, but here are the books I have been reading. This is the first book I've finished, An Artificial Revolution: On Power, Politics, and A.I. It talks about A.I. from a feminist perspective and the future of it as politics has not caught up with technology. Then I finished Stoner. So depressing! I started it last year and finished it last week. I am now reading Homo Deus by Yuval Noah Harari.

Fatima: If you listen to Chaii Lab, you already know Naman has got us all on bell hooks books. They're fantastic and thought-provoking. I love how powerful her writing is without being abrasive, which I don't like in some books. Before she went to move back to America, Naman's leaving present to me was "Orientalism" by Edward Said, which she told me is incredible. It was also a dig because when she was raving about him, I got excited and said we should have him on the podcast. It turns out he'd passed away years ago, and I'm super ignorant, haha!